Monday, October 8, 2007

IP, money, content and all...

Our late night chat with danx0r re. IP/money, and all...

(22:40:10) danx0r_: talk on mailing list re money & IP rights
(22:40:17) dalien: with overlapping coords
(22:40:35) dalien: yeah i wanted to write up something, actually on the blog, but it needs some more thought
(22:40:40) dalien: i think every sim can issue money
(22:40:46) dalien: as soon as they give something back
(22:40:53) dalien: and this something can be storage for distributed inventory :)
(22:41:28) dalien: so this could be both a factor to limit the inflation and the factor to expand the thing
(22:41:38) dalien: and the local sim providers could sell this space to users for real $$
(22:41:57) dalien: so it goes as $$$ -> disk space used --> funny money emitted
(22:42:16) dalien: more $$ = more funny money = more storage space :)
(22:43:14) danx0r_: hmm
(22:43:16) danx0r_: or maybe CPU
(22:43:20) dalien: cpu is hard
(22:43:28) danx0r_: but in any case, opensim has to be the plumbing, not the water
(22:43:36) dalien: if i tell you to calculate log2(123)
(22:43:39) dalien: and you reply 1204701724
(22:43:44) dalien: how can i verify it is right ? :)
(22:43:46) danx0r_: well I think it should be up to the grid operators what to base their economy on
(22:43:51) danx0r_: heh
(22:43:51) dalien: yup
(22:43:58) danx0r_: you really think about these trust issues, don't you
(22:44:11) dalien: but i think eventually we could supply the framework eventually
(22:44:21) dalien: yeah security is my RL job as well
(22:44:26) danx0r_: I think it's around 6.7 (log2(123))
(22:44:42) danx0r_: same with storage though
(22:44:49) danx0r_: there's storage and then there's storage
(22:44:54) dalien: well, right.
(22:45:00) dalien: availability, etc.
(22:45:02) danx0r_: it's all about the % chance that you will screw up my data
(22:45:03) danx0r_: yup
(22:45:14) danx0r_: you can measure quantity; quality is harder
(22:45:19) danx0r_: even bandwidth is wierd that way --
(22:45:22) dalien: yes..
(22:45:30) danx0r_: I can sell you 10 megabits per sec, then sell it to 10 other people
(22:45:40) dalien: so we come to a multi-country economy with sim=country :)
(22:45:42) dalien: wacky :)
(22:45:44) danx0r_: and no one may complain until you all want to do some event at the same time
(22:45:50) dalien: yup
(22:46:01) danx0r_: it's going to come down to a market-driven thing I think
(22:46:15) danx0r_: and what makes a market economy work, really, is the rule of law
(22:46:24) danx0r_: ie, some way to get compensated if you're screwed
(22:46:37) dalien: right.
(22:46:42) danx0r_: otherwise market economy breaks down to lords, serfs, gang-style behavior
(22:46:56) danx0r_: warlords
(22:47:05) dalien: so the way to compensate against the malicious user is to cut down the whole sim :)
(22:47:14) danx0r_: I hate to say it, but we may have to move through human history quickly
(22:47:25) dalien: yeah :)
(22:47:29) dalien: well, we can see it with SL
(22:47:30) danx0r_: well I think the biggest thing, and you've brought it up --
(22:47:46) danx0r_: is a trust network
(22:47:51) danx0r_: ala Ebay
(22:47:57) dalien: yup.
(22:48:00) danx0r_: it can be gamed, but it's a start
(22:48:16) danx0r_: that way, someone can start a bank
(22:48:22) dalien: and then trusted network between the sims, somehow.
(22:48:26) danx0r_: and pretty soon, everyone will know if he's bullshit or not
(22:48:33) dalien: (maybe as part of the network between their owners?)
(22:48:38) danx0r_: right, well then when I want to buy something,
(22:48:41) dalien: because for teleports you need to trust the sims
(22:48:49) danx0r_: I say "I'll give you 50 danx0r bucks"
(22:49:01) danx0r_: you look up danx0r-bank, and see it's trustworthy
(22:49:16) danx0r_: so you accept the offer, we secure-negotiate with danx0r, and the transaction is made
(22:49:29) danx0r_: then the vendor has a $50 credit at bank-danx0r
(22:49:32) danx0r_: something like that
(22:49:47) dalien: yup
(22:49:57) danx0r_: similarly, the vendor can check to see if I'm a known pirate
(22:50:00) danx0r_: and refuse to sell
(22:50:13) dalien: exactly
(22:50:23) dalien: but that part is actually easy.
(22:50:45) dalien: but where do we get the bucks from - independent bucks per-sim ?
(22:51:04) dalien: or still something tradeable...
(22:51:22) dalien: i think space/bandwidth could be something pretty cool for this
(22:51:30) dalien: even independent from sims
(22:51:43) dalien: so you actually pay for the space to host your inventory
(22:51:47) dalien: and b/w for it
(22:52:02) dalien: and you get the one-time funny money.
(22:52:04) dalien: hmmm
(22:52:27) danx0r_: heh ldvoip wanted it to be based on silver
(22:52:29) dalien: now the question is what happens if one person quits... that would mean the default of those money that were initiated by this person
(22:52:35) dalien: rl silver ?
(22:52:42) danx0r_: he had about $1000 in silver, he thought that would be the basis of his economy
(22:52:45) danx0r_: yup
(22:52:52) danx0r_: he's a bit off on that subject actually
(22:53:00) danx0r_: as in, a bit funny
(22:53:12) dalien: hmm. well, yeah it is simply "central bank=ldvoip" :)
(22:53:21) danx0r_: I think the market works out value by itself
(22:53:35) danx0r_: since somebody somewhere pays a hosting provider or buys his own equip and bandwidth
(22:53:45) danx0r_: the base value of things will get into the market that way
(22:53:54) danx0r_: the rest is exchange rate, arbitrage
(22:53:58) dalien: yeah but there need to be some kind of tokens
(22:54:13) dalien: and there are abusers
(22:54:14) danx0r_: well yeah, the client as it exists today is useless
(22:54:22) dalien: well, not fully
(22:54:30) dalien: under assumption that it is in the trusted sim
(22:54:34) danx0r_: well maybe you can shoehorn it into something
(22:54:36) dalien: all the brains can be moved to sim
(22:54:47) danx0r_: the abusers --
(22:54:54) dalien: so yes i think it can be "shoehorned" that way :)
(22:54:58) danx0r_: look, a typical SL transaction is for what, $.25?
(22:55:09) danx0r_: I mean, there are going to be assholes, but it should be manageable
(22:55:13) danx0r_: hmm... I hope
(22:55:40) danx0r_: I guess it could just get overrun with idiots from Nigeria just trolling for free money
(22:55:56) dalien: right
(22:56:04) dalien: assuming i can print the money and you can
(22:56:07) danx0r_: whitelists, blacklists...
(22:56:20) dalien: there is always the strategy that would win
(22:56:32) dalien: and assuming the "good" economy with everyone "printing money" sparingly
(22:56:37) dalien: someone can always come and print a lot
(22:57:01) danx0r_: The key issue is how virtual$ gets converted to r/l currency
(22:57:11) danx0r_: right but they're printing their own crap
(22:57:22) danx0r_: in my way of thinking, everyone runs their own press
(22:57:26) danx0r_: but you can tell who printed what
(22:57:34) dalien: hmm well, you'd need for the start to move real currency into toy currency
(22:57:43) dalien: that is rather simple
(22:57:52) danx0r_: yeah, as we're saying that's done by buying bandwidth & machines
(22:58:01) danx0r_: then that has value, such as land sales in SL
(22:58:21) danx0r_: or whatever scheme, per sim or X CPU per sec on a grid, whatever the model is
(22:58:25) dalien: right.
(22:58:34) dalien: hmm so the sim owner can emit X banknotes...
(22:58:40) danx0r_: that's the r/l cost of doing virtual business
(22:58:42) dalien: need more banknotes - need one more sim :)
(22:58:48) danx0r_: yeah I say let everyone do their own
(22:59:02) danx0r_: then put some conversion utility in place, so you know what each type is valued at
(22:59:09) danx0r_: like EU, before the euro!
(22:59:13) dalien: hehe
(22:59:24) dalien: interesting. and a giant megaexchange
(22:59:25) danx0r_: then if some idiot keeps printing up his money, it inflates
(22:59:30) danx0r_: and his exchange rate goes down
(22:59:33) danx0r_: right
(22:59:39) dalien: right... but then those people who have his money...
(22:59:49) danx0r_: I think that's the only way it will work distributed, without everyone fighting over who gets central control
(22:59:57) danx0r_: that's how r/l economies evolved
(23:00:06) danx0r_: eventually, there's an obvious one or two big players
(23:00:08) dalien: and then you would need to somehow figure out how to keep track of who prints how much
(23:00:16) danx0r_: and everyone else will fall in like, stabilize their exchange rates
(23:00:22) danx0r_: well the market does it
(23:00:47) danx0r_: if someone takes a risk on a new bank, and they print too much, they inflate, the investment goes down, and everyone knows it
(23:01:02) danx0r_: it's up to whoever prints money to manage the market for their money
(23:01:12) danx0r_: which is an incentive for most ppl to work with a known provider
(23:01:19) dalien: hm yeah. so assuming we tie the money with the person and vice versa...
(23:01:19) danx0r_: pretty soon, you'll have at most 3
(23:01:27) danx0r_: but that's a much better situation than 1
(23:01:52) danx0r_: people who trust each other will agree to consolidate their currency
(23:03:02) dalien: yeah, might actually work :)
(23:03:12) dalien: a looooot of PKI
(23:03:18) dalien: and a huge DHT :)
(23:06:39) danx0r_: sure
(23:06:59) danx0r_: but today's machines won't have a problem with that
(23:07:03) dalien: yup
(23:07:07) danx0r_: some of it can be done on a trusted server
(23:07:24) dalien: actually i think as soon as the number of "good" people is big enough
(23:07:29) dalien: it will be hard to defeat
(23:07:32) danx0r_: right
(23:07:39) danx0r_: I have similar thoughts about IP
(23:08:02) dalien: like ? "black-mark the evil guys" ?
(23:08:10) danx0r_: no
(23:08:15) danx0r_: well sort of but a whitelist
(23:08:24) danx0r_: blacklists are useless now
(23:08:31) dalien: yup
(23:08:33) danx0r_: everything has to move to positive ID and trusted networks
(23:08:45) danx0r_: you don't even let a client log on without some sort of introduction
(23:08:48) danx0r_: so for IP,
(23:09:10) danx0r_: the trust contract is that you voluntarily agree to abide by the author's distribution preferences
(23:09:30) danx0r_: and if you're caught cheating, that's a black mark on you
(23:09:30) dalien: ok
(23:09:36) danx0r_: it all comes down to ID's, really
(23:09:37) dalien: makes sense :)
(23:09:45) dalien: yes authentication is the start of all evil :)
(23:09:48) dalien: identity
(23:09:55) danx0r_: what ppl won't like about this world is, it becomes more difficult to act anonymously
(23:10:04) danx0r_: I know... a faustian bargain
(23:10:14) danx0r_: but, and this is some deep heavy philosophy here...
(23:10:14) dalien: well, they have only illusions about the anonymity in SL
(23:10:26) danx0r_: society will migrate in one of two directions:
(23:10:26) dalien: actually this scheme is *more* anonymous
(23:11:05) danx0r_: 1) fascist rulers who try to centrally control all communication so they can control society (ie Orwell's 1984)
(23:11:21) dalien: aha
(23:11:47) danx0r_: or 2) a 'utopian' world where everyone voluntarily gives up some of what we today consider basic rights, especially the right to exist anonymously
(23:11:55) danx0r_: that's a bit like Huxley's Brave New World
(23:12:25) danx0r_: and I'm not sure there's a nice, libertarian alternative. I wish there was, but I think it's impossible beyond a certain number of people, and when technology gets to a certain point
(23:12:34) dalien: yup
(23:12:42) danx0r_: these virtual worlds are going to be laboratories for how the real world develops
(23:12:52) dalien: precisely my point of playing with opensim :)
(23:12:59) danx0r_: that's why some pretty big thinkers are all excited about this. Not for poseball sex :-/
(23:13:01) dalien: since SL has failed this status imho
(23:13:10) danx0r_: well it was a decent first try
(23:13:14) dalien: yup
(23:13:18) danx0r_: like ancient Sumeria or something
(23:13:24) danx0r_: it will take a few iterations
(23:13:25) dalien: we know what the masses are excited about :)
(23:13:34) dalien: poseball sex has to be present in all incarnations :)
(23:13:44) danx0r_: so I prefer to live in a world with a bit less privacy and anonymity
(23:13:57) danx0r_: than a world where anyone can terrorize others with impunity
(23:14:08) dalien: yup
(23:14:11) danx0r_: poseball and other sex variants will not go away
(23:14:18) dalien: better no privacy at all than *some* privacy
(23:14:23) danx0r_: you can choose to live "off the grid" -- it's not mandatory
(23:14:51) danx0r_: but if you do, you will find it hard to buy things, and create a network of relationships
(23:15:21) danx0r_: now keep in mind, this doesn't mean everyone has to know your r/l identity
(23:15:28) dalien: precisely
(23:15:40) dalien: what you do online is your identity
(23:15:41) danx0r_: you can create an online identity that is separate, but *that* identity has to behave well
(23:15:45) dalien: which may have nothing to do with RL
(23:15:46) dalien: :)
(23:15:56) danx0r_: and if you blow it, you'll find that building that level of trust from scratch is going to take time
(23:15:57) dalien: hehe we think exactly the same :)
(23:16:01) dalien: yes

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